Mar. 23, 2005
Every once in a while the question of incorporation comes up and there has been considerable input on the subject over the years.
A summary of the important aspects of the incorporation question would be:
1. Incorporation can offer tax benefits.
2. Incorporation has an initial and annual maintenance expense.
3. Corporations are separate entities and as such require a degree of "corporate housekeeping," of which failure to maintain may result in the loss of any liability protection which may be afforded by the corporation.
4. While many who incorporate use the benefits afforded them by incorporation, many do not use them which makes the incorporation a waste of money. I have seen this repeatedly in my tax practice over the years. Most of my tax clients were REALTORS.
5. Some states may have restrictions on payment of commissions, allowing commissions to be paid to only brokers or sales licensees, and typically, corporations may hold a broker but not a sales license.
6. Consult your tax professional and make careful consideration before taking on the responsibilities and benefits of incorporating.
My bottom line on it is that one must be willing and able (financially) to implement the benefits brought by incorporating, otherwise it is a waste of time, effort and money to incorporate. While incorporating is a benefit for many, most people I have seen attempt the "incorporate" strategy do not take advantage of the benefits allowed and the corporation becomes more of a burden to them than a benefit..
Saul Klein e-PRO/GRI
Certified Financial Planner (CFP)
The following are REALTOR comments from RealTalk over the years:
----------------------------------------------
3 March 2002
Benefits I see in my situation (your mileage may vary):
1. I can now get group health insurance for my team.
2. The corporation pays me a reasonable salary. All money left at the end of the year is doled out to the corporate shareholders (only me). I still must pay income tax on this distribution, but no double FICA/Medicare. 15% Tax savings here up to the first $84,000 made, then 2.9% savings for all over this amount. **Significant savings here**.
3. I can now set up a corporate retirement plan for me and other employees.
4. I do have some degree of a corporate shield against litigation.
5. I can transfer wealth through giving shares to the kids or others.
Downsides:
1. I must incorporate and pay a filing fee.
2. Yearly corporate renewals.
3. Slightly higher Tax prep fees (Personal return + corporate return) 4. Increased recordkeeping burden (payroll taxes MUST be paid on time)
Notes to remember:
If you have rental properties, do not place them under the "S" corp (Use an partnership LLC) because if the home is transferred for personal use, it will trigger a taxable event and you'll have to pay capital gains, even though the home is not sold. As an LLC, you can pull out assets and not cause a taxable event to occur by distributing appreciated property.
Bottom line is this:
Use a S corp when you have a business that is making probably $80,000-100,000/year or more and you want to shield some of the profit from payroll tax or FICA. At this point, spending $1,000-2000 on the extra paperwork, you'll save $5000 in taxes, more or less. Any income over the $80,000-100,000 mark means additional savings.
Use an LLC if you have appreciating properties (rental or investment) because of the ease of transferring the properties into and out of the LLC.
With an S corp, you'll probably pay much more in taxes when you sell a property than with an LLC.
Here's my disclaimer: Call your attorney and CPA and sit down with them.
Make sure you use a CPA who is knowledgeable with real estate agent tax situations like mine is! A good CPA will save you thousands each year.
Chip Aydlette, e-PRO
----------------------------
9 March 1998
There may be overriding tax reasons (and other reasons) why you may not wish to become a LLC or a corporation -- consider the cost of disability insurance on yourself, for instance -- the costs of being an LLC or corp. may dwarf the benefits.
Always remember your goals, look at the big picture and sit down with someone who knows when determining what type of entity your brokerage should be. As my stepfather once wisely told me -- Never do anything solely for tax reasons. I didn't always heed his advice, but I have found that he was always correct..
- -rsr-
Ron "Don't let the tax tail wag the entity dog-- that goes for the liability tail, too" Rothenberg, CFP
-----------------------------
10 Mar 1998 20:06:04 -0600
Some of you guys are missing the point. Agents don't incorporate to avoid legal exposure- that's what E&O is for. Incorporation is to allow you major tax deductions on real expenses self employed people cannot deduct without incorporating. Any state that does not allow payment to an agent's corporation needs their laws changed!!!
Thanks
Jo Barkley
---------------------------------
10 October 2001
As in most things, there are few absolutes. For us (my wife and I) a C-corp was the way to go because it allowed us to contribute to a defined benefit pension plan and shelter much more income than we would otherwise have been able to. This also allowed us to self-trustee the plan and we could inexpensively (plan costs) invest in trust deeds. Also, we could deduct 100% of our medical expenses. IMO, the best form of the business entity depends upon the needs of the owner and what is available. For example, until recently, California didn't allow single member LLC's. And, it's probably prudent to consult with your _professional_ advisors (attorney, accountant,etc.)
Fred Salzer
--------------------
08 Jan 2001
I have to agree with Randy and Tom. I incorporated in '94 and found myself tangled in a nightmare of never-ending forms and paperwork that cost me a fortune in time and money. I dissolved the corp. over a year ago and am still being barraged with "IRS spam"!! There may be benefits to some that would make it worthwhile, but it wasn't for me, especially because I don't carry a lot of monthly debts (no car payments ever again!!) that would benefit from a corp's ability to write them off. I'd think long and hard before doing it.
John King
-----------------
11 July 2001
I have long been a do it yourselfer for accounting. This year I needed help . My accountant also is asking me to consider incorporation. Surprisingly, it's not because of liability. It has to do with Self employment taxes. He says a lot of profits could be made not subject to SE taxes saving thousands per year.
Accounting fees might run $1000 per year. I'll be looking in to it.
Ed Tobey, REALTORR
Saul's note:
If you are employee of your corporation, it is true that you would have no self employment tax to pay, but the employer and employee payroll contributions are more than the SE tax and your corporation would have to pay BOTH.
Saul
------------------------
On top of that as a corporation you would also be paying Federal and State Unemployment taxes which have been running around 2.7% for us. As self employed you do not pay those.
Tom Hanrahan
----------------------
11 July 2001
IMO, the form of business organization is dependent on the owner's (owners') needs. In our case, factors in choosing to incorporate (C-corp) were the ability to have a defined-benefit pension plan and a medical reimbursement plan. We are older and wanted to contribute the maximum amount (tax deferred) possible to retirement savings. We also wanted to expense all our medical costs. Our pension plan is self-trusteed and we invest primarily in trust deeds which, in our experience, is difficult, complex and expensive through plan trustees that will allow this investment. Most trustees of which we are aware will allow only investments in registered securities.
Fred Salzer
------------------
11 July 2001
I went through this awhile back.
>From what I learned, the form of your incorporation plays a large part
>in
what you can and cannot do and how it affects your taxes. I was looking for liability protection, the ability to have a retirement plan and simple taxes. I have these within an LLC. All funds "flow through" directly to us and corporate taxes are not applicable. Since the funds flow through, we pay as we would otherwise as a sole proprietorship. No increase in my accountants fees. An S Corp is similar depending on what you do with it. The more complex the form of incorporation, the more it'll cost you at the accountants office. LLC's were designed to be a simple way for a small business to achieve liablilty protection without being taxed as a corporation. Talk to a lawyer about whats best for you. It cost us $300 to form it plus another $100 for the state RE license for the corp, which hangs at the office.
Troy Dierling
------------------------
20 October 2001
Excess self employment tax, extra administrative fees and paper work, potential licensing issues, and the benefits sought, are often not funded.
Saul
-----------------
21 October 2001
I know that in PA the broker can only write a commission check to the name on the license and PA will not at this time license any entity except an individual.
Joseph M McGavin
------------------------
27 December 2001
I have researched the issue of S-Corp vs. LLC here in South Carolina and my CPA and attorney came up with the following points that applied in MY case... your situation may be different.
As a LLC (single agent) you are effectively becoming a "sole proprietor partnership." If you are partnered with another agent, an LLC may be a good way to go. If you are including in your LLC any rental property or investment property, when you sell it you do not have to pay taxes to take it out of the LLC. It will be as if you owned it yourself. As far as income taxes go, all commissions earned under the LLC are taxed as well as Full FICA and Medicare at 15.3%. All income is treated as self-employment income. You must also never forget to re-up the LLC Charter with the South Carolina Sec'y of State Office each year.
As an S-Corp (single agent), You must pay yourself a "reasonable" salary.
For demonstration purposes, let's say my Net commission after expenses is $100,000. I pay myself a reasonable salary of $45,000 (much more than the average agent expects to make), and the remaining $55,000 remains with the S-Corp. At year's end, all shareholders of the corporation (only me!) divide the corporate profits. Here's where the monetary benefits come in: On the $45,000 I pay Federal Taxes as well as double FICA and Medicare. Corporate profits will be taxed by the Feds, but NO FICA and Medicare is due. Thus, you save 15.3% on every dollar you leave under the S-Corp. My CPA stated that that salary you are paid must be reasonable when/if it becomes audit time. And to make matters more complex, for 2002 taxes, All earnings over $84,000 are exempt from FICA, so the savings is only 3% on every dollar.
So, in this example, I would save $8415.00 on my 2001 return...well worth the incorporation costs and added tax prep costs. If I had $200,000 in net commissions after expenses, I would save $23,715 in 2001! Convinced Now??
If you own investment/rental property and make over 75,000-100,000 per year, it benefits to have an LLC for the properties and a S-Corp for your real estate activities. If you aren't confused now, maybe you should sit for the CPA exam...my CPA had to explain it to me several times.
Chip Aydlette, e-PRO
--------------------
13 September 2002
Terry Crook Writes:
>>>>>Talk to your CPA/Tax Preparer. Every situation has subtle differences and your long-term objectives/goals will influence this decision. As we often say to consumers, consult/use a professional; much better than relying on your friends & nghbrs. This is an IMPORTANT decision, do not take the cheap/lowcost route to an answer!<<<<<
I couldn't disagree with you more strongly Terry. I'm sure you would agree that there are competent as well as incompetent Surgeons, Doctors, Professors, Accountants, Lawyers, RealTalk contributors and yes, even Real Estate Agents. Here, within the RealTalk community is a wealth of experience and information. Some of it is worthless or incorrect, but most of it is enlightening, thought provoking, and useful in some way.
It might even be possible that some of us in this forum, were once CPA's or business lawyers prior to practicing the art of real estate. My objective in throwing out the question is NOT to " take the cheap/lowcost route to an answer!," as you put it, but to accumulate enough varying opinions, facts, and other information so that I am educated in the right questions to ask when consulting a CPA or Lawyer.
The more information I can arm myself with ahead of time, the more likely I will be in determining the competence of the professionals I am paying to give their 'expert advice" and the more likely I will be able to save time by asking the right questions (since they typically bill by the hour.)
How fortunate we are that contributors to this forum DO NOT bill by the hour and are equipped to help many of us avoid the pitfalls associated with choosing new resources that DO bill by the hour and who MAY be negligent, ignorant, or both.
Again, I would invite those of you who have incorporated as S-corps, or L.L.C.'s, to throw in your 2 cents worth on the benefits, disadvantages, good or bad stories, etc. so as to enlighten those of us who are considering their options prior to retaining what we hope will be competent practitioners in the areas of law & accounting to assist with the transition towards incorporation.
Allan VanInwegen, GRI, e-PRO, MS
---------------------
14 September 2002
Allan VanInwegen wrote:
>Again, I would invite those of you who have incorporated as S-corps, or L.L.C.'s, to throw in your 2 cents worth on the benefits, disadvantages, good or bad stories, etc. so as to enlighten those of us who are considering their options prior to retaining what we hope will be competent practitioners in the areas of law & accounting to assist with the transition towards incorporation.
I have an "S" corporation. The tax savings are EXTRAORDINARY. Get a competent accountant to prepare your returns and DO the quarterly estimated returns and you'll save the penalties which can amount to quite a bit. I had to change accountants to get one that would cooperate with my plan.
The accountant that I had used for 10 years said that he didn't believe I needed to be incorporated (he wasn't). I shopped for a year to get someone who would listen to me. The attorney who help me decide the type of corporation charged a nominal fee for everything. The key to significant savings is a good accountant.
This is really a good deal. My only objection has been that I have to depreciate software development over some years instead of deducting the cost, but it's a good trade off since I saved enough in taxes in one year to pay for the software development three times over. I love writing checks to my accountant.
Is this a great country, or what??
Lenn Harley
-----------------------------
14 September 2002
Be sure that your licensing statute permits you to incorporate.
In some Canadian jurisdictions that may not be possible and if Realtors try to assign their commissions to a corporation then the commission income must be reported by the individuals and not their corporations. It would be different if the local law or regulatory authority permits corporations to carry on the business of the professional. Some professional statutes also provide that - even if this is permissible for income tax purposes - the individual is still personally liable for professional activities.
Gather as much information as you can and then meet with a competent lawyer and tax advisor as part of your planning team.
Merv
Mervin Burgard, Q.C.
---------------------
14 September 2002
And, after following Merv's advice - make sure you have hired professionals that you plan on having "long-term" relationships with. If you are going to be around for a long time, so are they. You will never cease to have need of their expertise. It's not enough to ask them if they have experience. Like when folks as us for references, we need to seek out working partnerships that are with honorable folks.
There's not enough money in the world to pay for good advice - it's PRICELESS!, and you will need even more from that money-bag to un-dig yourself from having been given bad advice. Research! Research! Research!
and ask NetFriends like Merv and others on this forum, if they know anyone in your own area that they would work with, if they lived in your area.
Folks on this forum are a wealth of information and are wonderfully willing to share. Networking is everything!
Carolyne
-----------------------------------
23 October 2002
> How about the taxes the corporation needs to pay? There must be some?And workmen's comp, or things like that, is anything required? When I incorporated I went with the Sub-Chapter S incorporation. With that method you avoid double taxation. All the corporation profit or loss carries straight over to your personal income. And losses can be carried over from one year to the next. Therefore the Social Security tax would be paid just like you do now with self-employment. Plus, you get more deductions as a corporation. The corporation can deduct the entire cost of paying for your health insurance. There are probably other benefits, but I'm not a tax person......
Linda Grissette
----------------
23 October 2002
From: "Ida Freimer" <ida@freimer.com>
> How about the taxes the corporation needs to pay? There must be some? And workmen's comp, or things like that, is anything required? I'm just (again) wondering if I should incorporate, and I'm not sure if the savings are really there. Actually it seems like it will cost me more. Is this very state dependent? Could someone who is just studying it and thus still remembers all the rules fill me in on the added costs? I didn't look much into it, so I don't know what I'm talking about here, but it appears to me that it's not a very expensive, but not free neither, and somewhat paperwork producing way to buy yourself a bit more limited liability.<
Ida:
As I said, I don't know too much about details, my wife is the brain behind the whole operation. From what I see, she gets something in the mail periodically from the State of Kansas, IRS, and whatever else, she tears off the coupon, writes something, includes a business check and that's about all I see. The trick is that she does it periodically as there is a deadline for paying all these taxes and this keeps her organized :o) I am glad I am not involved in the paperwork :o) I know that it took her a while to read through all the paperwork, fill it out once or twice, read all the notices she get in the mail in the name for the corporation, but if this saves us money (several thousand $$ per year) why not? You have to pay yourself an "average salary" for the job performed, with the average production of 4-6 homes per year (if that much :o) for an average agent nation wide I am OK.
I can go to MLS and prove that. Then you have an average agent company/broker split and you are down to this income. So, paying yourself $1,000-2,000 monthly in salary would be average depending on your market. The rest of that is "gravy" and you can take it in form of dividends.
You salary cannot be lower than the average salary - that is the whole purpose of incorporating - to pay as little SS and Medicare taxes :o) on the salary. Otherwise, if you go too low, it's a clear indication that you are in it for the taxes - which most people are :o)
A word of warning, if you are planning to buy a house and qualify for loan the year or next year when you incorporate, tax to a lender and your tax advisor about qualifying and how your incorporation will effect that.
Sincerely,
IGGY Dybal
Submit Feedback
Member Login
Blogs Homepage
Featured Entries
Recent Entries
Recent Comments
Tags
My Starred Entries
Create A Blog
RSS Feed
Word of the Day
Ask the Experts
Question of the Day
Member Login
Join RealTown
Request Password
RealTown RSS Feed