what makes a loft a "loft" : Manhattan Loft Guy

Manhattan Loft Guy

Jun. 17, 2009 - 'apartment' or 'loft' / sometimes you just have to laugh

still getting used to the new listing system, but smiling on occasion
My new mantra is if 'change is good', why is transition so hard? I offer that thought as a transition to this nugget in the Corcoran data-base that caught my eye. I am still not sure what The Rules are (there must be some, right?) for classifying "lofts" in the system, but this (internal) history about a downtown condo conversion from early in this century (definitely a "loft", to my Manhattan Loft Guy eyes, due to its prior non-residential use, interior columns and relative scarcity of load-bearing walls) shows a little ... ambivalence:

1/21/2004      Bldg Type: From Apartment to Loft
1/21/2004      Bldg Type: From Loft to Apartment
12/3/2003      Bldg Type: From Apartment to Loft
10/22/2003    Bldg Type: From Loft to Apartment
10/17/2003    Bldg Type: From Apartment to Loft

(grin) At least no one has tried to change it since then....

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Jul. 10, 2008 - loft or not? caution: active ranting ahead

classification irritation
Ever since I began counting new listings and closed sales for Manhattan "lofts" last October I have been aware of -- and irritated by -- the definitional problems in doing such a 'simple' thing. As I said in that first post on October 21, 2007, there is a:

dicey definitional problem

I am catching all listings carried in OLR as "lofts", which I think is dependent on the listing agent checking the "loft" box when they enter the listing. I know this will be under-inclusive because not all agents check the "loft" box even on listings that we would all agree are lofts. I suspect this will be somewhat over-inclusive for the same reason: some agents will identify an apartment as a "loft" that - to a loft-snob like myself - is really only "loft-like".

I think that the benefit of standardized data is worth this compromise (not to mention that the data searches are much simpler if I don't have to second-guess what the listing agents have done).

I was reminded of this just today, when two very expensive lofts came to market in the same "west SoHo" (I hate that designation!) building, ironically enough, by the same agent. One is marketed as a "loft"; one is not. No question: both are lofts. Arrggghhh.

The confessed-loft brags about beams and columns and exposed brick and original steel doors and high ceilings -- all classic "loft" indicators. The too-shy-to-be-called-loft brags about the exact same elements but does not use the word "loft" and the agent did not check the "loft" box on the inter-firm database for this listing.

In order for me to be consistent in my reporting, only one of these new listings will show up in this week's report. I still think that is the most reasonable course for me to take to preserve the integrity of the data (limited as that integrity may be) because the alternative is for me to second-guess listing agents (not to mention that it would make data collection much more cumbersome, perhaps even impossible). But it is irritating that there is no better way to do this.

End of rant. Resume normal activities.

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Nov. 30, 2007 - 414 W 51 in contract, but you say tom-ah-toe

I say toe-may-to
Greg Leveridge of JC DeNiro certainly knows his lofts, since he has been agent for many loft sales, including one at 543 Broadway I blogged about a couple of times. So maybe that proves that one person's "loft" is a Manhattan Loft Guy's "not-loft" -- while reasonable people may differ about what a "loft" is.

if "brownstone", not a "loft"
Leveridge just had a "loft" listing go into contract at 414 West 51 Street #3, which caught my eye as a non-traditional loft neighborhood.

Here's the oxymoron: "this fantastic full-floor Brownstone condo loft is a prefect blend of …." One of my hallmarks for a true "loft" is a prior use of the building, re-purposed for residential use. A "brownstone" is (by definition) a residence - a row house using (or faking) a "brown stone" façade.

This "1,100 sq ft" floor-through is relatively large for a brownstone apartment (not for a loft) and has two 'lofty' elements: an open kitchen (hardly unique to lofts, these days) and a (relatively) open floor plan, with the 2 bedrooms as the only rooms. Based on that living room picture that includes the apartment door, the ceilings don't look very high, the "high ceilings" description notwithstanding.

who cares?
Maybe this is an issue only for loft snobs like me. But it screws up my attempts to stay current on "loft" sales data when a listing that is (arguably) (to me, certainly) not a loft is carried in listings data as a loft. (See one form of my kvetching from November 26 New Listings + Sales of Manhattan lofts in last 7 days.)

I just don't think (in this case) that anyone interested in buying a "loft" will be interested in a brownstone. I took a shot at defining "lofts" in a very early post (August 30, 2006: the Tao of Lofts / essential features), in which I snarked:

There must be many opinions on what makes a loft a "loft", or where the line is between merely "loft-like" and a "true" loft. I know this because I see many listings for "lofts" that - to me - are not lofts at all, but "apartments".

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, of course. And everyone is entitled to mine, as well.

So there, you have it. That's my story, and I am sticking to it. What's yours?

© Sandy Mattingly 2007

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Sep. 26, 2007 - you want an authentic loft? 265 Water + 35 White qualify, both new(ish)

right time to use overworked words

Two new listings fit my paradigm of "authentic" Manhattan lofts, though they are very different from each other. (Only one uses "unique" in the listing, which I can forgive. See October 15, 2006: unique ain't what it used to be / more than 100 "unique" lofts in Manhattan??)

The 3^rd floor at 35 White Street has 12 foot ceilings, 11 huge windows along one long and one short side, in an industrial building re-purposed for residential use (legally) about thirty years ago. There's no real floor plan up (yet) but it seems to be pretty open space, "1,750 sq ft" set up as 1 bedroom plus den, with two baths. (Is that a column or drapery in the 4^th photo?)

The amazing thing about this loft, however, is its serendipitous location looking northwest over the corner of the very wide Church Street and White Street (just east of the Tribeca Grand hotel and just south east of the old AT&T headquarters), with open views of the Empire State Building.

Part of its authenticity -- to me -- is the gritty location. This part of Tribeca is like a peninsula. The hotel and the huge AT&T Building, the wide Church Street (terminating in 3 blocks at Canal Street), and the even wider (beginning of) Sixth Avenue cut off this block from the main parts of Tribeca to the west.

Nothing "uber" about it, and I am not ignoring the finishes, but this is a classic Tribeca loft. It is all about The Space. Asking $2.1mm and $2,550/mo.

The 2d floor traded 17 months ago, but city records don't show the price (ask was $1.55M for that "untouched original" space). The 4^th floor traded in May 2005 for $1.75mm (the former studio of Barnett Newman).

The quoted size is an awfully fair measurement, probably recorded in the original offering plan. City records show the building dimensions as 25 x 75 feet (1,875 sq ft). Subtracting the stairwell and elevator shaft should get you pretty close to the quoted 1,750 sq ft.

Open House Sunday, Sept 30 from 12 - 2 PM

The 4^th floor at 265 Water Street is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. The Seaport area buildings had very different mercantile usages than the Tribeca buildings, and many are older (this one is from 1879, our data base says). The neighborhood is certainly not for everyone, but if it appeals to you this is a great space-for-dollars play, oozing with charm.

Asking $1.25mm and $1,400/mo (with a short assessment) for "1,650 sq ft", this has maple floors, original columns, exposed beams and sprinklers. Consistent with the price, it looks as though it is in pretty primitive condition, with no website bragging about the finishes. Ceilings don't look very high, but it definitely qualifies as a "loft" building. With a manual elevator!

They are counting on some general market price appreciation with this one. It has been offered for sale in 2003 ($875k), 2005 ($1.3mm) and for two months this year ($1.2mm). The Market has not liked any of those prices (yet).

The 3^rd floor sold three years ago for $875k and the same agent who has the 4^th floor sold the 5^th floor five months ago for $999k (that was billed as a bring-your-architect "first generation" loft -- nice locution, that!).

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Jun. 26, 2007 - window shopping the loft aesthetic at 143 Reade + 421 W 54 St with NY Times

“harbingers of … a refreshing return to an aesthetic that celebrates the qualities of loft living”

Suzanne Slesin’s ‘Window Shopping’ feature in this past Sunday’s NY Times Real Estate section, Two Loft Conversions, Two Points of View, reviews her visits to two current loft conversions, which she found to be refreshing harbingers.

Both Artisan Lofts at 143 Reade St (now 157 Chambers) and The Hit Factory at 421 W 54 Street are uber-lofts with – as she put it – “a long list of expensive amenities in both buildings lets us know right away that we are in the “I can’t live without these luxuries” era” but she found enough classic loft elements “that recall the authenticity of what loft living represented not so long ago: soaring 11-foot ceilings, lots of stainless steel and rough-hewn planks in well-integrated, multifunctional spaces for cooking, dining and living”.

It is not clear from the article whether the finishes she saw at Artisan Lofts will be the same throughout the building, but she was intrigued by the kitchen (“masculine yet funky, fanciful yet brooding”, with “chunky walnut cabinets, walnut-clad appliances, woven butcher-block counters edged in iron hardware dotted with big screws”) and both intrigued and seduced by the Ann Sachs-designed “brave ad unusual” bathrooms.

what does a PR person do after this?

God bless journalism … she described the view at one Hit Factory loft offered just under $1,000/ft as “appalling”. She also described a master bedroom in another unit (measuring 17’5” x 11’9”) as “strange and narrow”. She generally described the north and west views in the building as “miserable”.

too many rooms, too little ‘space’?

Overall, she was a bit sad about these modern loft conversions.

Although the developers of both the Artisan Lofts and the Hit Factory base their marketing strategies on their buildings’ industrial provenance, the evocative sense of open space that made the loft lifestyle such a liberating alternative is somewhat compromised.

Perhaps this is a natural evolution. Rough, raw spaces are rare, and loft living does not belong exclusively to artists anymore. Since I wasn’t planning on becoming a painter, sculptor or even an indie filmmaker in the near future, that may be just as well.

how uber are these lofts?

Artisan Lofts will have 38 units, whose common charges will support (a) a rotating gallery exhibition In the lobby, (b) not just a gym but a “Wellness Center”, (c) a children’s “Imagination Center” with play space and theater stage, and (d) a roof garden. And a concierge, of course.

We show 12 units as having signed contracts or accepted offers, with another 12 currently for sale. The building website (not the quickest site to load) shows common charges ranging from $1,249/mo for the 1,500 sq ft unit 6B (asking $2.25mm, pix and floor plan on Corcoran here) up to $2,839/mo for the 2,935 sq ft unit Tower 17N (asking $7.25mm, pix and floor plan on Corcoran here). Taxes are – of course – additional: even with a J-51 abatement, monthly taxes range from $849 to $2,896.

evoking open space?

The #6B floor plan takes advantage of the big windows to provide a sense of ‘space’, since the rooms are arrayed in traditional fashion. Yes, you will see “classic” lofts with rooms and walls like these, but in most classic lofts the walls are not load bearing and the flooring runs under the walls. I don’t know how these new lofts are built, but I suspect that the walls are where the walls are, and more extensive work will be required to open them up than in a classic loft.

The Hit Factory (building website here) doesn’t have the same bling as Artisan Lofts (they certainly are not bragging in the same way), with most prices just over $1,000/ft (the neighborhood discount is a big factor at 54^th Street west of 9^th Avenue). Common charges and taxes are radically different than at Artisan Lofts in Tribeca: Unit 3G is said to be 1,237 sq ft, asking $1.325mm with $739/mo in common charges and $1,318/mo in taxes. They layout is much more “apartment” than “loft” (see the #3G floor plan on Stribling here). The “C” line layouts are similarly non-loft-y (here). Unit 4D is 2,378 sq ft but costs a lot more to carry each month: $1,422 in common charges and $2,583 in taxes. At least this one has a rather large living / dining area (floor plan is here).

Looking at these floor plans it is easy to see why Suzanne Slesin was somewhat wistful about these new “loft” spaces:

the evocative sense of open space that made the loft lifestyle such a liberating alternative is somewhat compromised.

That is why she said that Artisan Lofts and The Hit Factory only “recall the authenticity of what loft living represented…”.

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Nov. 14, 2006 - loft = designer clothes / the award for most interesting description of loft living goes to�

… the eco-conscious Tribeca mom with the guilty conscience (and the Prius)

One nugget from Sunday’s ‘Habitats’ section of the NY Times Real Estate section.

The mom with the automobile commute to the Upper East Side with the junior high daughter had a lovely way to describe the luxury of loft space in Manhattan:

“I had theorized that in Manhattan, where the rarest, most prized commodity is space, that the loft is the ultimate form of conspicuous consumption because you have all your space on display at once,” she said. “It’s like wearing all your designer clothing at the same time.”

She also gets an award for her triple play with “grubby”: her former “grubby little one-bedroom” apartment, her boyfriend’s former “grubby little studio” apartment, and their current loft lobby, which is (yes) “grubby”.

This essayist and novelist has a way with words!

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Oct. 15, 2006 - unique ain't what it used to be / more than 100 "unique" lofts in Manhattan??

Manhattan real estate metaphysics / how many unique lofts can fit on the head of a pin?

I happen to believe that lofts are wonderful; many are unusual. Part of their charm (for those so charmed) is that they are so different from "cookie cutter" layouts in standard "apartments", and so different from each other - even within the same line in the same building.

Real estate marketing being the excessive endeavor that it is, it should not surprise that the word "unique" is bandied about a lot with lofts.

bandy, bandy, bandy

But I was surprised at how much bandying there is. NYTimes.com has more than 100 hits for listings for lofts that contain the word "unique". That's just too many to fit, but which ones are not unique enough? Which ones are "really unique" or "truly unique"??

I guess that is a matter of personal taste, but here is a selection.

"a unique portfolio of extraordinary loft homes" at 135 W 4 St for $5.96mm

this "unique prewar loft" is also a "special duplex" from Halstead for $3.995mm

"This unique home offers a perfect layout" 95 Greene for $3.5mm

in contrast, this one has "a unique, flexible floor plan" at 105 E 29 St for $2.995mm

"patina of the original walls and tin framed windows give a unique warmth that balances the clean lines of the conversion" on W 17 St for $2.7mm

"renovated to add all the modern day luxuries while preserving the unique original 1910 architectural details" at 684 Broadway for $2.595mm

here's one on Christopher St "WESTVILLAGE'S PRIME LOCATION OFFERS A UNIQUE AND LUXURIOUS LOFT!" for $2.135mm

This one is both "unique and desirable" at 128 E 7 St for $1.85mm

At 416 Washington St there is "exceptional" and "offers a unique balance of history and modern design in one of the most glamorous and cosmopolitan areas of the city" for $1.45mm

354 Bowery contains a loft that is both "unique and rare" for $1.35mm

111 Barrow has a "unique and special" loft that is so unique and so special that "Pictures cannot capture the space and light" for $1.298mm

this one may be the most unique, because of its price ($685k) and location at 310 E 46 St in TurtleBayTowers, a prewar high rise in a non-loft area (but it is legit, as a former factory building), but here goes: "loft in space" (nice, eh?) "Welcome home to this unique sprawling lofty space with 13' ceilings and a large standing sleeping loft" Bellmarc (actually, the "standing sleeping loft" does sound unique)

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Sep. 29, 2006 - more limitations of loft living / not so bright on Prince

limitations of the Soho style loft

There’s an open house this Sunday (1 – 2:30) at 113 Prince St #4ER offered by Wendy Maitland of Corcoran. It looks like a sweet “Soho style” loft, though I’d put it just outside Soho (the wrong side of Broadway) and it embodies the limitations of Soho lofts.

beautiful loft with old + new features

Said to be 1350 sq ft, this newly renovated loft sounds deliciously done (beautiful kitchen, new baths) with 13 ft tin ceilings and original (restored) floors. The ask is $1.595mm (a post-Labor Day price change of $100k) with the typically low maintenance (for a non-doorman building) of $933/mo.

What’s not to like?

one wall of “light”

Well, the four windows are along the (short) North face, meaning that any second “bedroom” would lack windows. I am pretty sure the building just outside these windows is five stories, so light may be minimal and “view” non-existent – as the listing photos imply (like so many Soho lofts). The “bedroom” has windows, but is open to the rest of the space – which is a great use of space for a single person or couple, but problematic when there are guests or kids.

Labor Day pricing

It has been on and off the market since February, starting at $1.695mm. The $100k price change after Labor Day may not be enough to attract fresh buyers.

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Sep. 12, 2006 - a classic loft, warts and all / limitations of the form

415 W 55 St has a beautiful loft, but…
Unit 3C at 415 W 55 St (offered by Karen Fornash at Corcoran) is the archetype of a (small-ish) loft: the building has some kind of industrial background, ceilings are 12 ft (and seemed higher when I saw it), the space is mostly open, the windows are big. While it is ‘only’ about 1200 sq ft, it definitely passes my smell test for being a real loft.

... there are some 'issues'

3C is beautifully designed (featured in two magazines), but it also exemplifies many problems with loft apartments, especially with smaller ones.

It is a classically long and narrow space, with the large windows along one of the narrow sides, seemingly without any load bearing walls. This layout permits only 1 bedroom with windows (unless the living area is to be window-less), so the other “room” cannot be a legal “bedroom” (though it is not illegal to sleep in it), as it is configured here. The kitchen (which looks so bright in the photos) is a looooong way from the windows, more than fifty feet.

There is only one bathroom, since the building’s plumbing stacks obviously run in the middle of the building, along that far-from-the-windows wall. Adding a second bath, if possible at all, will involve some creative plumbing work and either a raised floor or a dropped ceiling to run water and waste lines through. No matter what, the bathroom(s) will be a long way from the bedroom.

The apartment entrance is along this same wall, so one enters alongside the kitchen – which is not everyone’s idea of a graceful entryway.

The apartment itself is beautiful – showing what can be done in an open loft. But the layout will be awkward for many.

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Aug. 30, 2006 - the Tao of Lofts / essential features

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, of course. And everyone is entitled to mine, as well.

Lofts have to have (a) a sense of "space", (b) "high" ceilings, (c) lots of windows (the bigger the better), and (d) the flexibility afforded by only a few structural columns or other load-bearing elements.

Lofts don't have to have (a) a prior non-residential use (at thsi point it is pointless to quibble over brand new loft buildings) or (b) the Tao of Lofts - essential features like exposed mechanicals, visible girders, beams or columns, but it helps.

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