Jun. 20, 2008 - 11 West 20 Street #2 closes / did they get THAT??
Today's new inter-firm list of Sold & Closed includes the Manhattan loft on the 2d floor at 11 West 20 Street, which is interesting (to me, at least) for a few reasons: (a) it can be either commercial or (when "re-zoned as of right") residential, (b) it seems to be an extremely minimal 'white box', (c) it took only 9 weeks to get a contract from the first offering in mid-March, and (d) the (successful) asking price of $2.5mm is $350k higher than two 2007 sales of fully finished units. Did they really get (close to) $2.5mm?? (No closing price yet that I can find.)
very flexible white box, indeed
The building history is accessible through StreetEasy, of course, here, where you can peak at the now-gone Halstead listing for the 2d floor. Talk about a flexible space ... while there are only the traditional front-and-back windows, there are no interior columns in this roughly 27 x 88 foot space (wide enough for two real bedrooms in back). 13+ foot vaulted ceilings must only enhance the sense of open space.
a history of lower-priced mints
The 8th floor was said to be in "mint" condition when it sold in February 2007 at $2.15mm off an asking price of $2.25mm, while the 5ht floor was said to be in "triple mint" condition (not to mention, "magnificent") when it sold in January 2007 for the then-asking price of $2.125mm (reduced from the original $2.25mm asked). Number of mints aside, these two points seem pretty strong indications of value of fully finished lofts only a year and a half ago. Yet the 2d floor was successful asking $2.5mm for a loft that should require another $400k to $500k (using a $200/ft benchmark for this "2,200 sq ft" space).
coming back to market soon?
The 8th floor had been offered for sale since October at $2.85mm (in "spectacular" condition), a price that is more in line with a successful 2d floor sale off of $2.5mm (though still a hefty premium from its February 2007 trade at $2.25mm or the January 2007 very mint-y closing of the 5th floor). But that listing is no longer on PruDE's site -- though it has not been updated to the other firms as off the market. If #2 got close to $2.5mm, what should the 8th floor get?
Color me curious (about the clearing price of #2).
© Sandy Mattingly 2008
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Jun. 11, 2008 - data point in a sideways market / closing at 32 West 18 Street
... and sometimes the bear gets you
I need to address Josh Barbanel's latest frustrating review of market data from Sunday's New York Times (A Mixed Picture) soon, but the money quote for me was from The Miller, who:
said that unsold inventory was running about 27 percent above that of last May, a time when inventory was unusually low. He said the market was “moving sideways, flat” with some apartments selling for less than they would have a few months ago, and some selling for more, a trend that he believes is likely to continue.
poster child for "selling less" in Altair 18
32 West 18 Street #2B (Altair 18), had been for sale since October, starting at $4.6mm, dropping to $4.2mm, then $3.995mm, then $3.75mm, then (finally) $3.5mm in April, with $5,186/mo (condo). [The original PruDE listing info is gone from their site but Street Easy is a good ("easy") source of information about past sales (and current listings) in a building; this building's page is here.] It had a signed contract in May and shows up as Sold & Closed in the inter-firm data today. While that is undoubtedly a huge relief for the sellers after 7 months and 5 prices, that sweet relief comes at quite a cost.
The closing price is not yet posted on city records that I can see, but the price trajectory suggests they did little better than the final asking price of $3.5mm (if that). The now-breathing-again seller was the original buyer of this unit (although he never moved in) in August 2007. He paid $3.45mm then (his during-construction contract was signed in August 2006) and launched his flip attempt within 3 months of closing, looking for a 33% bump. That did not work out.
The market for this particular loft has been flat, at best, over nearly a year -- something that neither the seller nor his agent predicted.
been here, hit that (twice)
I hit this loft as part of a nice pair of dueling open houses in January (back when I was doing that sort of thing) with a similarly priced loft at 217 West 19 Street. That post was old enough that I did not get around to scraping it off when I pulled posts thatcommented on then-current listings from other firms, so it is still here: January 18, dueling $4mm open houses at 217 West 19 Street + 32 West 18 St.
Indeed, I hit this one again in a more recent post that did get scraped just a few days after I wrote it in early April. But I saved the text of that one, so here is a trip down Manhattan Loft Guy memory lane:
I hit 32 West 18 Street #2B (Altair 18) when it was not-quite-new, along with a similarly priced (at that time) loft, 217 West 19 Street 9th floor. My point in that open house duel post was that there would probably be a 65% overlap between open house visitors to these two lofts, due to their proximity, similar prices and size, and both being new-ish condos "from the high end of the catalogue". January 18, dueling $4mm open houses at 217 West 19 Street + 32 West 18 St. The histories of these two Manhattan lofts could hardly be more different since then.
a lot of history in a short time
#2B had come to market in October at $4.6mm, dropped to $4.2mm in December and to $3.995mm just before that January 18 post. (Common charges and taxes are $5,186/mo.) They dropped the price again in February to $3.75mm and again this weekend -- down to $3.5mm. As I said in January,
"you’d get “3,292 sq ft” with “everything you expect” from architects Cetra/Ruddy (including a 23 foot long Rosewood kitchen), but you won’t get any views to speak of (2d floor) and only 4 windows at each narrow end. Altair 18 has an attended lobby (217 West 19 Street does not), with monthly expenses commensurate with a high level of service (concierge, La Palestra gym, roof deck with cabana)."
net net hurts hurts
The critical context for this price history is that these flippers (the loft has never been lived in) signed a contract in October 2006 (during construction) and closed in August 2007 at $3.45mm. Obviously, the tiny spread between purchase price 8 months ago and current asking price will be dwarfed by round trip transfer taxes and other big-ticket expenses. OUCH.
I see only one other attempted re-sale in the building. #11A is newly for sale (last week), asking $5.8mm for "3,007 sq ft" with Empire State views and "custom redesigned everything". That unit was bought (newly constructed with high-end finishes, but not yet "custom redesigned") for $4mm in August 2007, with a contract signed in July 2006. (Common charges and taxes are $4,591/mo; why so much lower than #2B??)
I don't know if the sad history of #2B is because it is a second floor unit or if The Problem is more general for the Altair 18, which The Market loved enough to sell out last year. If #11A has a happy ending (for those flippers), it will look like a second floor problem only.
other happy news (for a different seller)
The other loft in that January open house duel has had a shorter history. The 9th floor at 217 West 19 Street came to market January 12 at $4.1mm, dropped to $3.995mm within 4 weeks and found a buyer and a contract within 3 weeks of that (single) drop. That history shows the sellers are satisfied and implies the sellers are happy. That one is a little smaller than #2B at Altair 18, in a 2002 building without all the amenities of Altair 18 (as noted above), but with similar sounding bling and unusual light and views. My January comment was that it
was “designed for the most discerning buyer” (see the listing for the bling-bling verbiage). That’s all good, of course, but it will earn its money (or not) because of the 52 feet of north windows (that bright needle is the Empire State Building) and another 52 feet of south windows (windows are 10 feet tall). And the south wall has a full length balcony. There are not many lofts with this length of glass and this kind of view behind that glass.
They are asking $4.1mm and $2,703/mo (condo) for “2,611 sq ft”.
That glass (and what is behind [outside] that glass) were well received by The Market.
happier seller on 19th street
The other half of that 'dueling open house' pair fared better. As I said in closing that April7 post, above, it found a contract within 6 weeks of coming to market in January at $4.1mm, after one price drop to $3.995mm. It has since closed (7 weeks ago) at $3.9mm, less than a 5% discount from their original asking price.
I still think that these two dueling units are an interesting pair, having been offered at the same time at similar prices, being roughly the same size, being both rather high-end renovations. Altair 18 had all those amenities in its favor (and the common charges toreflect that), while 217 West 19 Street has those amazing 9 th floor views. Those views actually point at the major deficit for #2B at 32 West 18 Street: not only does the second floor not get much light (and no direct light), the rear overlooks a parking lot and some HVAC equipment, as I recall. #2B was punished for something -- either that or (and/or?) the higher monthlies. But it is at peace now, finally.
© Sandy Mattingly 2008
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May. 20, 2008 - quick sale at 20 East 17 St
woosh!
The 7th floor at 20 East 17 Street came to market on March 10, in pretty much the same market uncertainty as today. It took all of 17 days for terms to be agreed upon and a contract to be signed, and shows up on today's Sold & Closed list (no closing price yet through city records).
It is said to be "2,200 sq ft" (though Property Shark cites city records of "2,125 sq ft"), for which they were asking $2.3mm and $1,509/mo (condo). As you see in the Corcoran listing, the finishes are consistent with a high-end condo conversion circa 2000, with Sub-Zero and Viking in the kitchen and an 18 foot limestone "spa" master bath. The footprint is classic Long-and-Narrow (the proportions suggest about 25x85, but the pix look narrower) but the layout uses the entire rear wall for the master suite, with a second "bedroom" that may or may not have a window (don't see one on the floor plan or in a photo). The Empire State and Met Life views are described, not pictured.
All in all, assuming they got the asking price (more or less) in 17 days, this was a brand new condo in 2000 that has just sold for a below average price for a loft and for a condo, at just over $1,000/ft. (Miller Samuel's most recent quarterly report put the average price per foot for a Manhattan loft at $1,246, the average price per foot for a condo at $1,416/ft, and the overall average price per foot for coops and condos in the first quarter at $1,289; see Miller Samuel Q108 report.)
got grit?
While the market for this unit may have been limited by the rather inflexible layout (essentially a One Bed Wonder), the block is probably the biggest drag on the price here. This is a very commercial street, with lots of west bound traffic across the top of Union Square, anchored by McDonald's at the corner of Union Square. The block also features a parking lot, various restaurants and my favorite falafel place, but it is not for everyone -- it is far less genteel than the Flatiron blocks east of Fifth Avenue but closer to Madison Square.
timing is ... (almost) everything
The 7th floor came to market ten days after a deed was recorded for the sale of the 8th floor at $3.895mm. At that price, the top floor is rather a different animal than its immediate downstairs neighbor, but the prestige of that sale had to have helped sell the 7th floor. This animal is larger (the master suite is at the roof level) and more sleek ("renowned interior designer Vicente Wolf") than the 7th floor, and has a 750 sq ft private roof deck. They started this one in July and got a contract at full asking price by December, providing a nice boost to the marketing of the 7th floor -- especially with the 7th floor at a manifestly not greedy price.
Props to that seller and Corcoran's Steven Cohen (who sold both these units).
© Sandy Mattingly 2008
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Mar. 26, 2008 - it can be flipping hard / back story on NY Post Just Sold at 260 Park Avenue South
you say Ulysses, I say Odysseus
The odyssey of #7B at 260 Park Avenue South is given public notice of a successful conclusion in this weekend's Just Sold section of the NY Post's Real Estate Section. As noted, it took 374 days for this new Manhattan loft to close at $3.45mm off the (most recent) asking price of $3.55mm. The Post distills the loft this way:
Prewar two-bedroom, 2½-bath duplex condo, 2,525 square feet, with living/dining room with 11-foot ceilings, kitchen with marble countertops, Sub-Zero refrigerator, Viking stove and Bosch dishwasher, home office, marble bath with double sinks and soaking tub, washer/dryer, through-the-wall AC and southern exposure; building features doorman, concierge, gym, roof deck and courtyard. Common charges $2,026, taxes $2,630.
Here's what really happened.
the whole truth and nothing but
These January sellers were buyers when the building sold its first units in February 2006. They paid $2.675mm. Can't tell if they did any work of consequence in the unit (I don't see any building permits) before putting it on the market ten months later, starting that odyssey at $3.85mm.
They must have been on a quarterly tickler, as they dropped to $3.7mm in 3 months, $3.65mm after another 3 months, and $3.55mm after another 3 months before signing a contract in November and closing in January.
very rough numbers
It may be that the February-2006-buyers-turned-January-2007-sellers never moved in, as the pictures show an empty unit. Rough math goes something like this: bought for $2.675mm in February 2006, probably paying the developer's transfer taxes at about $48k and the mansion tax of about $27k -- at least $2.75mm all in. The gross sales price of $3.45mm generates gross profit of $700k, reduced by those pesky transfer taxes again (about $62k) and commission of from $172k to $207k, reducing the net to under $450k. If, in fact, they never moved in, they paid $4,626/mo for 24 months ($111k) without enjoying the health club, concierge and other high-end services. They will owe capital gains tax (federal at 15%) on the net, bringing them to something less than $290k, net, without considering what it cost to carry a mortgage on whatever loan they carried fromFebruary 2006 to January 2008. Net net, they put up at least $267,500 in cash to close, and may have carried a $2MM+ mortgage at from $13k to $16k per month for 24 months (or paid more cash and lost the investment benefit of that cash), for around another $350k or so -- a very big OUCH if they did not live there.
better if they lived there, for sure
Net net net, if they did not live there in those 2 years, they are under water, despite buying low ($2.675mm) and selling high ($3.45mm); if they got to live in and enjoy the space for those 2 years, they would havetaken out more than double their (minimal) down payment of $267,500.
duking it out at Corcoran?
Internal politics, maybe? Credit for the sale in the Post goes to Lauren Muss of Corcoran, who probably had the buyer, since the listing agents were Corcoran's Deborah Grubman, Carol Cohen and Shari Scharfer-Rollins.
© Sandy Mattingly 2008
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Mar. 24, 2008 - no cigar, as 12 West 18 Street is back on market
I have removed the content of this blog post, as it comments about the current listing of another agent. For information about why, check out end of an era for Manhattan Loft Guy / a new day dawns? from April 9.
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Mar. 12, 2008 - new at 20 East 17 Street / views not (many) dollars
Un Sq condo with views around $1,000/ft
The 7th floor at 20 East 17 Street is new to market this week through Steven Cohen of Corcoran, asking (only) $2.3mm and $1,509/mo (condo) for "2,200 sq ft". With top kitchen + bath finishes, 12 foot ceilings, a real fireplace and views of the Empire State and Met Life buildings, why is this condo price so far below average for a Manhattan loft? (The average price per square foot for a Manhattan loft at year-end was reported by Miller Samuel to be $1,290/ft, while the condo average overall was $1,310; obviously, both numbers are weighted heavily by new construction or conversion lofts.)
The building was converted to condos -- and fully built out -- in 1999. Finishes were probably up to standard at that time, but that is 2 or 3 turns of the developer ‘arm’s race’ ago by now.
laying out issues
The Long-and-Narrow presents the standard challenges for a loft with windows only front and back. Mainly, there is only 1 real bedroom, if I am reading the floor plan correctly as having no window in the other 'bedroom' (office).
There are no dimensions on the floor plan, but the lot is 25 x 92 feet in city records. It may simply be that the pix don't do justice, but to me the living room looks narrow, as the public stair, the elevator and that corner area with shelves cut the width significantly. So maybe there isn't a feeling of 'space'.
Being essentially a 1 Bed Wonder may also be a factor here. (Again, if I am reading the floor plan right that there is no window in that 2d 'bedroom'.)
does an avenue make a difference
Is it the grit? This block is still a busy commercial street, with west-bound traffic cutting across the top of Union Square. There are just a few coops and condos on this block; none with terribly recent sales. A huge loft at the corner of Fifth Avenue (5 East 17 Street, 5th floor) finally closed in August 2006 after a year on the market. That one is "6,000 sq ft", was offered at $4.625mm and $4,136/mo (condo), with a commercial grade chef's kitchen, 12 foot ceilings, and traded at $4.366mm. The 5th floor at 7 East 17 Street was taken of the market in January after only 3 weeks; they had been asking $3.775mm for "2,774 sq ft" that was said to be newly renovated.
Across Fifth Avenue, I have posted about several buildings in that first "west" block, starting at least in December 2006 about 3: selling West 17th St / 3 very different lofts almost on top of each other. None of those was offered at much of a premium, either (one was raw, one was new conversion, one was a mature loft).
I hit #6E at 12 West 18 Street on February 5 (Flatiron condo at $1,000/ft / 12 West 18 Street is new) and offered opinions on why that not-so-light loft was priced around $1,000/ft.
So, maybe part of the price issue for the 7th floor at 20 East 17 Street is that grit, which extends across Fifth Avenue….
one recent sale in building
The 8th floor is a penthouse duplex of "2,700 sq ft" plus a private "750 sq ft" terrace. Cohen represented that one in a sale that just closed 2 weeks ago. They'd been asking $3.895mm since July but I don't see a closed price in city records yet.
© Sandy Mattingly 2008
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Mar. 10, 2008 - when bad things happen to good contracts / 49 East 21 Street is back
I have removed the content of this blog post, as it comments about the current listing of another agent. For information about why, check out end of an era for Manhattan Loft Guy / a new day dawns? from April 9.
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Feb. 18, 2008 - 2 new on West 20 Street / building yin vs yang at 15 W 20 + 9 W 20
I have removed the content of this blog post, as it comments about the current listing of another agent. For information about why, check out end of an era for Manhattan Loft Guy / a new day dawns? from April 9.
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Feb. 9, 2008 - ‘rare’ open house duel at 24 E 22 / fighting about windows
I have removed the content of this blog post, as it comments about the current listing of another agent. For information about why, check out end of an era for Manhattan Loft Guy / a new day dawns? from April 9.
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Feb. 8, 2008 - comping out is hard to do / new at 64 West 15 Street
they say that…
I will take William Grant and Russell Miller of BHS at their word at this point, that #2W at 64 West 15 Street is an “airy loft [that] masterfully combines beautiful prewar details with today’s’ contemporary amenities”, as they provide a host of detail and description in support. (No pix or floor plan yet, but that is probably a temporary issue only).
New to market today, they are asking $2.7mm for an undisclosed number of coop feet (probably 2,000) set up as 3 bedrooms + 3 baths, with maintenance of $2,332/mo.
will they be blue?
I am intrigued because there are no good comps in the building, as the only sale in the building since 2005 was a ground floor triplex unit and the only 2005 sale (of #5W, with “2,000 sq ft”) was off an asking price of $1.495mm and took a year and 3 price drops to sell, though it ended up at $1.501mm -- higher than the last ask.
If #2W and #5W are the same footprint in this 6-story 2-lofts-per-floro building, then the new #2W listing is asking $1,350/ft in a building that has never seen anywhere near $1,000/ft.
That first floor triplex closed 2 months ago just under $1.1mm for what was said to be “1,650 sq ft”. That layout makes it a poor comp for #2W under any circumstances, but the price certainly does not encourage one to think this building commends a premium.
Even if #2W is a much better 2,000 sq ft renovation than #5W, it is hard to project a $200,000 renovation and 30 months of market appreciation onto $1.5mm and reach $2.7mm.
give the comps another try
I don’t see that values on the block are way up in the last few years, even with the imminent completion of The Oculus at 50 West 15 Street. Next door to #2W at 60 West 15 Street, there is a much larger loft that had been available, though in a much different condition. The 4th floor at 60 West 15 Street had been offered through the Rob Gross group at PruDE since August, but is now off their website but not yet communicated through the inter-firm system as off the market. They had been asking $2.95mm and $2,035/mo for “3,100 sq ft” that seemed in relatively primitive condition. Point is, it did not sell under $1,000/ft.
One more building east, the 2d floor at 58 West 15 Street had been marketed for nearly 6 months ending last April for $3.25mm of (probably) 2,300 sq ft in “magnificent” condition. That didn’t work, either.
We’ll look at one more, still heading east. At 42 West 15 Street there was a sale last August at $1.9mm for the “2,300 sq ft” 5th floor of “well designed” space with a bling-bling kitchen, and the 2d floor is on the market (Tom Cooper of Sothebys thinks the full floors here are only “2,000 sq ft”, but that’s another story) for $1.799mm.
Bottom line is that nothing at this end of the block has sold in recent years above $1,000/ft. Seems to me that the #2W renovation will have to be awfully impressive to drive values to the level of $1,350/ft.
lemonade?
#2W sits on the corner of 15th Street and 6th Avenue. I love how they’ve dealt with that: “90 linear feet of corner window frontage provide a wealth of open skies and exciting city views up Sixth Avenue.” With 13 foot ceilings and 10 foot windows, that is a lot of excitement up 6th Avenue! (The windows are double insulated and tilt-and-turn, but the former trait is probably more important than the latter.)
Looking forward to pix, floor plan and any first hand reports on this one!
© Sandy Mattingly 2008
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Feb. 7, 2008 - such cute siblings, not twins, new at $2.1mm at 105 Fifth Avenue
I assume it is a coincidence that two lofts at 105 Fifth Avenue came to market at the same price this morning, in different lines, through different firms. Interesting counterpoints.
no web (yet)
#4D is said to be “1,765 sq ft” (set up as 2 bedrooms) and is asking that $2.1mm (and $1,685/mo) that is said to be “beautiful [and] renovated” with a Siematic kitchen, 2 marble baths, central air and 11 foot ceilings. Unfortunately, it is so new that it is not up on Corcoran’s site, but when it is it should be here.
he had me at ne plus ultra
#5C is said to be “1,500 sq ft” of “pure luxury”, asking that same $2.1mm (and $1,619/mo) and is set up as 1 bedroom and 1.5 baths. Alex deBourdes of Eychner had me at “no finer finishes on the market”, since if you say this you can’t afford to be contradicted.
The superlatives pile on (and on). “Powder room with most striking sink you’ll ever see”; “largest Boffi professional kitchen”, etc, etc, etc. Too much to paraphrase (though he lost me at “coterie”, then again at “Xanadu”).
many words, fewer pix
I wish the ratio of photos to superlatives were better, but there are enough to show that the green thing on the floor plan is a step-up office, with partitions that do not reach the ceiling. In other words, that is not usable as a bedroom. In other other words, this is a “1,500 sq ft” One Bed Wonder priced at $1,400/ft.
The four windows are all in front (north, over East 18 Street), split between the bedroom and living room. No pix of that side of the loft.
separated at birth?
#7D in this same building has been on the market all of 4 weeks, as yet a third firm weighs in with superlatives. PruDE’s Josh Rubin flogs that one as “triple mint”, “exudes elegance”, “well designed”, with “high-end appliances”. Like the brand new but somewhat secret #4D, it is said to be “1,765 sq ft” but this one is asking $2.25mm and $1,756/mo for the 2 BR + 2 bath array.
The #7D floor plan is a very logical use of the space, with the bedrooms up front, along the window wall and back-to-back bathrooms. #4D probably has plumbing in the same places, and may well have a very similar layout.
I am sure it is just the décor, but #7D has a very “prewar apartment” look to it, to me.
building history above $1,000/ft, but…
This coop has had a run of sales of beautifully renovated lofts, but none (yet) at $1,400/ft. There were 2007 sales of:
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#4A
Dec 2007
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$1.35mm
“1,300 sq ft”
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“’downtown’ loft feeling influenced by the elegance of European culture and design”
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#6A
May 2007
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$1.55mm
“1,370 sq ft”
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“custom loft masterpiece … slated for the Spring issue of Shelter Interiors Magazine”; “design details can be found at www.spi-design.com under the header, Union Square Apartment”
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#7B
March 2007
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$2.1mm
“1,750 sq ft”
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“designer renovated … with fantastic landmarked city views”; “thoughtfully designed space”; same agent as #7D
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$3.85mm
“2,900 sq ft”
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“without a doubt, one of the most spectacular xxx mint lofts”; “every detail a finished masterpiece”
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Open House Sunday February 10 1 – 2:30 PM in #7D
(#4D or #5C may yet schedule an open house)
© Sandy Mattingly 2008
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Feb. 5, 2008 - Flatiron condo at $1,000/ft / 12 West 18 Street is new
#6E at 12 West 18 Street is new to market today through Barbara Godson at Halstead, asking $1.795mm and $1,765/mo (condo) for “1,750 sq ft” of Long-and-Narrow with a “well planned kitchen” with top appliances and 2 renovated bathrooms, set up as 2 bedrooms and an office. Looks like a pretty good price for a condo loft in Flatiron….
issues, we got issues
This condo has not commanded a premium, with one sale last year near $1,100/ft (#9W at $1.909mm in April 2007 for “1,750 sq ft”) and two in 2006 bracketing 41,000/ft (#4E in August 2006, $1.835mm for “1,750 sq ft”, and #4W in July 2006, $1.625mm for “1,750 sq ft”). (Per the Miller Samuel Q4 report, the average price per foot for a Manhattan condo was $1,310.)
The floor plan and 2 photos may hint why this building has priced below the average condo. The 4 front windows in the living room look north over 18 Street; the master bedroom has 3 windows south (“looking” at an 11 story loft building built nearly at the property line) and 1 west window; the 2d bedroom has 2 west windows. Note the listing description of the bedroom as “pin drop quiet”. Note that this “E” [east] line has those west facing windows – apparently facing the “W” line across a (small?) airshaft. Note that the only 2 photos are of the front space only.
So don’t count on there being much light, other than in those front windows in the living room. (The listing headline says “full floor condo loft”, but there is a unit next door [#6W, which sold in December 2005 at $1.765mm], so this is “floor through” but not “full floor”.)
Space looks lovely. If you like the location and don’t need light, the price is in line with past sales.
Open House Sunday February 10 from 1:30 – 3:30 PM
© Sandy Mattingly 2008
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Jan. 8, 2008 - price change (eventually) does the trick at 24 E 20
2 firms, 3 prices, 8+ months = 1 contract
Among the lofts listed as In Contract as of Monday is 24 East 20 Street #4, which dropped in price from $2.895mm to $2.695mm after I touched on it last in an October open house review. This one was a little hard to follow as it had earlier been listed with Corcoran under a slightly different address (see April 25, 20067: real 2,500 sq ft at 20 E 20).
It came to market under PruDE in September at $2.895mm after 5 months on the market with Corcoran at $2.995mm. My April comment about price was less than prescient: “Asking $2.995mm seems hardly out of line, given the size and “custom” kitchen and baths, while the maintenance is a paltry $1,150/mo.”
was it the finishes?
Turns out it was hardly ‘out of line’ at 10% off, but off kilter before then. I am a bit surprised that it took so long, given the 36 x 72 foot footprint and ‘custom’ kitchen, but perhaps Reader Lofty was right in commenting on the September 14, 2006 open house review that “[a]side from the front and back windows that limit it to a 2br, the kitchen and bath remodel were mediocre” (it was Lofty who pointed out to me that “24 E 20” and “20 E 20” were the same 4th floor listings).
It will be interesting to see the contract price here – whether seller held tough near the (last) asking price of $2.695mm or whether the buyer negotiated a significant discount from that number. You’d think the seller would have seriously considered a bid of $2.5mm in the Fall, when the ask was $200k higher, but it is pretty unrewarding to guess. (Easy to do, but unrewarding.)
© Sandy Mattingly 2008
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Nov. 20, 2007 - and raise you ... / pushing at The Bullmoose
taking the temperature of The Market
Back in those thrilling days of yesteryear, new listings were often priced something like this: take the last sale in the building and add X%, where X could be 10%, 15% or 20%, depending on how long ago the sale had been and the appetite of the seller.
has The Market appreciated 8% since April?
#3B at 42 East 20 Street is new for sale today (no pix or floor plan yet), asking $3.95mm and $2,794/mo (condo) for "2,735 s ft" at the hot-when-nrew-in-2003 Bullmoose Condominium. The last sale in the building was #5B (with the same footprint and - probably -- the same finishes as #3B, given that this is a 2003 conversion), which sold at $3.65mm (off an ask of $3.695mm) in April and took 6 weeks to find a contract.
other sales
#7A is a smaller unit ("1,469 sq ft") with a different layout, obviously, and that sold for a higher price per foot juts before #5B closed. #7A traded above the $1.999mm asking price, at $2.05mm but took 2 months and one price drop (from $2.175mm) to find its buyer. That is $1,395/ft, compared to #5B's $1,334/ft.
#3A holds the building record price-per-foot. That unit is "2,222 sq ft", so very different from #7A, and closed in March 2006 for $1,572/ft. I don't see anything in the listing data base to account for such a premium for #3A.
If #3B gets the asking price of $3.95mm, that would be $1,444/ft, an 8% premium over the two-floors-higher sale 7 months ago.
© Sandy Mattingly 2007
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Nov. 19, 2007 - 73 Fifth has another cash-back opportunity
#6B at 73 Fifth Avenue is back on the market today, though it has not been off the market long enough to be missed by other than the most careful observer.
Offered through Josh Rubin of Corcoran, they are asking $3.5mm and $2,337/mo for "3,000 sq ft" of an "authentic Old World New York loft". I won't quibble: there are the requisite high ceilings, maple floors, oak window frames, columns and mechanicals, in this case arrayed in an unusual "L" layout with many windows.
gotta love the cash
Like the loft at 93 Mercer Street that was presented as new to market two weeks ago (cash back on new one at 93 Mercer), this coop derives income from ground floor commercial leases that is paid out to shareholders as dividends. A neat trick to avoid violating the 80/20 rule when done right.
a brief hiatus [then poof!]
I noticed it this morning as it came back to market, though it had only been off a week. It originally was offered in May at $3.6mm before it took the month of August off, then dropped the price to $3.5mm 5 weeks ago.
[poof update 11.24: it has disappeared from Corcoran's site, but the inter-firm database still shows it as "active"]
The large kitchen has sufficiently proper proper names to earn the tired designation "chef's" (which Rubin avoids, God bless him), but it took a while toggling between the two kitchen photos before I read them correctly, as the two long 'sides' of the kitchen. The two photos show different styles on the two sides that may be a bit jarring (but maybe it scans better in real life). Certainly beautiful work throughout the kitchen…..
floors don't photograph so well?
Speaking of scanning better, I am detecting the possibility that the floors need some work - which may be an unfair comment, not having seen them in real life. But something about the description and the photos leads me to suspect that most buyers may spend some money upgrading here, which may explain why it has been on the market for 6 months.
twin with 60 West 15 Street?
This one reminds me a bit of the loft just one block west at 60 West 15 Street 4th floor, which I hit most recently last month in an open house review. That one is "3,100 sq ft", also with relatively low maintenance ($2,035/mo), but that one more clearly needed work (especially the floors), without the beautiful kitchen that 73 Fifth Avenue #6B has. Maybe they are only fraternal twins. Have you seen this one, Jess??
I don't see any units in this building that have changed hands for the last 3 years.
© Sandy Mattingly 2007
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Nov. 17, 2007 - dropped enough at 24 E 20?
24 East 20 Street #4 is a bit of a favorite on this blog, based on the number of times it has been featured in open house reviews and the fact that I hit it a long time ago as a brand new Corcoran listing at "20 East 20 Street" for $2.995mm (April 25: real 2,500 sq ft at 20 E 20). (It is now a PruDE listing.)
My most recent open house description was:
"2,500 sq ft" of classic open loft with custom kitchen, set up as 3 bedroom + 2 baths; a classic Long-and-Narrow layout with no side windows and all the plumbing squeezed into one rear corner, roughly 36 x 72 ft.
All that is still true, but the price tag has changed this weekend, from $2.895mm to $2.65mm - a healthy drop. Still with a very low maintenance of $1,150/mo.
I am puzzled that it has not sold, and suspect it will sell off this improved asking price. But I have been wrong before (on this one, from April 25):
Asking $2.995mm seems hardly out of line, given the size and "custom" kitchen and baths, while the maintenance is a paltry $1,150/mo. One interesting note about building finances is that this is an unusual loft coop that requires at least 35% down - which certainly implies a more stringent level of financial review than is true of many loft coops.
Has anyone set foot in it and care to comment?
Open House Sunday Nov 18 from 2 to 4 PM
© Sandy Mattingly 2007
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Nov. 8, 2007 - mad numbers as toy plans switch off Madison Square / 1107 Broadway to condo (again)
how many more rounds?
The Real Deal ran a story on line last night that one of the two International Toy Center Buildings off Madison Square Park is back to being a planned condominium.
1107 Broadway is the more northern Toy building (the other being 200 Fifth Avenue). Hold on to your hats as we walk through the history here.
Chetrit Group bought both Toy buildings in 2005 for $350mm and announced plans to convert both to condominiums. They ran into a lot of trouble with the commercial tenants (particularly of 200 Fifth Av) and sold 200 Fifth Av earlier this year for $450mm. That building is (for now) expected to be leased as office space.
crunch go the numbers
Chetrit sold 1107 Broadway 3 months ago for $235mm and The Real Deal news is that that new developer plans to add 8 stories to the 16 story building and build 187 condominiums that will sell for $2,300 to $2,500 per foot. (Chetrit undoubtedly had many expenses in the 2 years since buying the two buildings for $350mm, but the $450mm + $235mm should cover those nicely, don't you think?)
Perhaps this time the plans announced will be plans built. This is definitely the least charming side of Madison Square.
I don't think there is another (legally) residential building on Broadway from 23 Street to Herald Square except for the Gilsey House at 1200 Broadway. (All the streets west of Broadway have loft buildings, of course, but Broadway itself is one commercial building after another.) In fact, there are probably no residential buildings on Broadway until above Times Square.
© Sandy Mattingly 2007
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Nov. 7, 2007 - it can be HARD to determine value / 12 E 14 drops again
shooting at the market price, and missing
#5A at 12 East 14 Street presents a cautionary tale to sellers and agents. The new-as-of-yesterday asking price of $999k ($1,364/mo) is one digit and about 30% less than the offering price in April.
I hit this one a month ago when it came back to market after a 6 week hiatus (Oct 10: still trying to give that loft away at 12 E 14 (if you buy terrace)) and again when it came back to market in June after a month away (June 5: 12 E 14 St terrace $1.25mm -- free loft attached).
why bad prices happen to good lofts
You never know from the outside in a situation like this if the seller was pushing a very unsuccessful price (if so, the agent accepted the listing at that price) or whether the agent proposed a very unsuccessful price (if so, the seller agreed to it). In law and in fact, it is the seller who sets the asking price, although rumor has it that some agent's advice about worth is awfully insistent. (Indeed, there is a rumor that agents have been known to buy listings by promoting an unreasonable price, but I would not know anything about that.)
The fact that the seller dropped one Corcoran agent for another after one month, then dropped that second Corcoran agent after three months in favor (eventually) of a Halstead agent does not tell me enough to even guess about who was driving the pricing strategy. But the price history is clear that the strategies have not worked.
Not even the latest strategies have worked (yet), with Halstead, as yesterday's price change lopped 16% off the Halstead price of a month ago.
pain or hubris?
I like to think that it is more difficult to price lofts than apartments, mostly because most lofts are (say it along with me…) unique. Especially lofts with roof space (uniquer, if you will indulge me). Roof space on a 5-story building is clearly different from roof space on a 25-story building.
With #5A, the it factor is the private roof space; otherwise it should trade in line with lower floor units in the building. Those clearing prices are not very encouraging.
#2C as said to be "1,500 s ft" when it sold in February for $1.03mm. #4F was said to be "900 s ft" when it sold 15 months ago for $720k. It appears as though #4A also sold 15 months ago, "750 sq ft" of "architectural gem" for $725k. (That one was marketed without a floor plan on the web, so I can't tell how closely that "750 sq ft" foot print matches the "900 sq ft" footprint of #5A.)
Let's just say that the past sales history does not support a valuation of $1,000/ft in this building without considering private roof space.
finding bottom, finding The Market?
Any buyer will be tempted to look at the price history for #5A and conclude that the seller should be prepared for more discounting - even if the sales history in the building suggests that $999k for "900 sq ft" of interior space and "1,200 sq ft" of roof space is a reasonable asking price. So reasonable that - my guess - if they had come out at that price in April (instead of at $1.395mm) they'd have closed by now. But buyers like the momentum of serial price drops, and will push for a bottom.
As I said, with #5A as a guide (warning), anyone with knowledge of what has happened in the building will be loathe to spend anywhere near the asking price for #5D. Time, of course, will tell. I will try to listen when it does, and report back.
© Sandy Mattingly 2007
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Nov. 1, 2007 - conjuring value / 11 W 20 St leaves the envelope behind
looking for comps, value, prices
The 8th floor at 11 West 20 Street is a "2,300 sq ft" "spectacular" loft that is new to the market this week, asking $2.85 and $2,123/mo (condo). This is a 25 foot wide Long-and-Narrow with some plumbing (but no windows) on both long sides and classic loft features (high ceilings, big windows, exposed mechanicals, vaulted ceiling). The baths are "spa-like" and the kitchen is "top-of-the-line". But there are only three photos.
When I looked to see if other units had been on the market recently, I first saw the 5th floor, which sold in January. Also offered by PruDE; also "spectacular"; also barrel vaulted; this kitchen has professional appliances; indeed, that whole thing was not only in "triple mint condition" but was "magnificently renovated".
So I thought that was a useful comp.
It took from April 2006 to September for the 5th floor to get a contract, with one price drop from $2.25mm to $2.125mm before closing at the $2.125mm asking price in January this year.
So then why is the 8th floor on the market at $2.85mm, I wondered.
is the 8th floor that much more valuable than the 5th?
Before I did too much to figure out whether there are significantly better views or light from the 8th floor than the 5th I looked at the 8th floor's history.
a very good comp
Turns out that this unit was sold in February this year, just 3 weeks after the 5th floor. We'll get right to the punch line here, then work back …. This unit closed 9 months ago for $2.15 - only $25,000 more than the 5th floor had just closed for.
The history on this unit is a little confusing, but it appears that it went to contract within 3 days in December 2006 at a 5% discount off its asking price of $2.25mm.
I don't see any building permits issued on this unit, so it is very likely that it was as spectacular last December when it went into contract at $2.15mm as it is now, offered for sale 33% higher.
Anyone buying this and planning a large mortgage needs to be concerned that this unit may appraise closer to its February 2007 sale price than its November 2007 asking price.
another year, another sale
I scrolled back just a bit further in city records to see that this unit also changed hands in June 2004. That time it had been offered for sale from December 2003 before going into contract in May 2004 (after 2 price drops from $1.85mm) and closing in June for $1.6mm.
I suspect (but do not know) that it was as spectacular then as it is now. From that closing 29 months ago, the current seller thinks someone else will think that it has appreciated 50%.
because I say so
I have noticed several lofts over the last few weeks that are priced at levels that are difficult to justify based on past sales in the same building (none quite so stark as this one, with a past sale of this unit).
Sometimes sellers and agents assign a real stretch price and they find a buyer in that neighborhood. When that happens it is hard to argue that The Market Price was something different from what that willing buyer paid for it. For that right buyer, there might be a perfect combination of geographic desirability (by their own personal social map), finishes that matched his/her tastes, otherwise the right emotional attachment to a space, plus - this is sometimes the critical factor in such sales - a fear that someone else would buy it out from under them.
So maybe the act of claiming that the 8th floor is worth $2.85mm will help them get a clearing price in that neighborhood. That's a whole lot of maybe, but maybe it's a start.
© Sandy Mattingly 2007
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on matters of interest to Manhattan coop or condo loft apartment dwellers, buyers, sellers, and others, especially about New York City real estate
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